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8th Ed. Help vs Warriors of Chaos

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by ChocRage, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    Hello everyone, I am reaching out to everyone and anyone for advice and tactics.

    I'm new to fantasy and just splashed out £200 on awesome dinos and I've already found problems. I've agreed to a champaign with some friends and GW staff and I'm struggling against Chaos warriors.

    The list I'm stuck using. (We can't change our lists):
    2 Skink Priests (Both Lv2)
    Scar veteran on Carnasuar. Bloodroar, loping stride, Light armour, stegodon helm, Great weapon

    2 15 strong Saurus warriors with full command and hand weapons
    2 10 strong Skink Skirmishers with blowpipes

    3 Rippersdactyles with Brave

    Advice anyone? This is a 1250 list. Forgot to mention, sorry.
     
  2. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    If it helps, I know I'm going against Ogres, Night Goblins, Dwarves, Wood Elves (GW staff member), possibly Scaven and Dark Elves and less chance of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings.

    All 1250 Armies and mix player skill levels. I picked my army following GW member advice and picking what I like the look of.
     
  3. TheGreatBeard
    Skink

    TheGreatBeard New Member

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    I have only played WoC and have only lost one game. All I can say is do your best to out manoeuvre them and above all else, make sure you dominate the magic phase.
     
  4. Skinquisitor
    Kroxigor

    Skinquisitor Member

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    Hello!

    Could you tell us what the woc player were using? Enough if you list the units, then we can give you advices how to handle them.
     
  5. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    From what I've seen, he runs 3 Juggernauts (Big mechanic bull like things) A general on one to. A chariot pulled by a similar looking beastie. And a big block of warriors with full command and 2 Sorcerers in. I don't know what upgrades or gear he has just everything is ws5 or better and S5 or better with 3+ or better armour and everything has a 4++ ward. He just says it has that and the GW staff can confirm this but I'm not told what is doing this.

    Also forgot to mention that I'm locked with one of my Skink Priests using lore of beasts and the other is got lore of heaven.

    One thing he likes to do is make my units flee off the bored turn 1. I lost 1/2 my army to magic, units either killed or fled that 12in (I always roll 2*6 for flee, its like a 90% change so far but on charge I roll averagely low.
     
  6. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    So, getting around to his flanks and rear someone pointed out, thanks to you, GreatBread.

    Magic will be hard but doable, so...

    Anything else i can do with what i have against this army?
     
  7. TheGreatBeard
    Skink

    TheGreatBeard New Member

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    Your welcome!
    I would strongly advise Heavens. Both Comet and Chain Lightening have turned the tide of a battle for me.

    I literally just tabled at WoC 1800 point army because of magic and cowboys.

    In terms of out manoeuvring, position yourself to either split there forces to suit you (meaning deployment is key) or bottleneck them and use the aforementioned spells.
     
  8. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    Thanks, and what spells do I want for beasts? As I'm locked with that one too.
     
  9. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Wyssans is golden in general. S5 T5 saurus are ridiculous. S5 T5 Templeguard with Razor standard = can opening extrodinaire, which is perfect against Chaos Warriors.

    Amber spear is a good way to dish out some high S, armour ignoring multiwounds, both against princes, but also some of their heavy cavalry. If they take deep units of Warriors, it can be pretty potent as well.

    Curse of Anraheir is good for the -1 penalty to hit, though Iceshard blizzard does this better, for cheaper. The dangerous terrain tests on a 1 AND 2 is good, but only if you can force him into terrain.*

    Savage beast of horros is always good if you are packing several combat characters. An Oldblood with Sword of realities + Savage Beast of Horros is brutal against anything. Even Daemon Princes don't want to deal with such a thing.

    Transformation cannot be used by Slanns, but can turn your little skink into a terrifying monster, at the cost of no longer being a caster. That said, even Chosens don't want to face a Mountain Chimera. It is worth noting that while transformed, he cannot cast, channel or dispel, and his gear stops working - but not his special rules! This means you can sill cast spells through your new monster, which can be quite a bonus in case you find yourself outside of combat. Another bonus is that you remain with the unit, desite being a monster, and a Mountain Chimera, backed up by a sufficiently large unit of skinks/saurus can net you steadfast in case you somehow lose combat.
     
  10. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    Thanks, so, with the list I'm using (I have to use that list, no changing of units, characters, equipment or even magic lore), how should I use my magic to greatest effect? Buffs over damage? If so, what units should I buff and with what spell?

    Getting 6+ armour then 6+ parry on saurus against WOC is costly.

    We are talking 8th edition right?
     
  11. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    With your list, Wyssans is easily the focus. T5 is tough to kill, even for Chaos Warriors, and S5 helps punch through both their armour and toughness.

    Generally, buffs and debuffs work best against Warriors of Chaos, because most of your spells just doesn't pack the punch needed to do anything to them. That S2 magic missile Beast has? Useless.

    Amber Spear has potential, though, and is worth considering against blocks of them. S6 is enough against most of them, because you just need to wound, they wont be getting armour regardless. Transformation of Kadon is also good, as pointed out, and if you get it, you should really focus on getting off the big one. A mountain Chimera at 1250 points is completely unmanageable by most armies.

    Heavens are a bit different. You have 2 spells that are really good at tipping the scales, namely your signature, Iceshard Blizzard, because that -1 to hit is a tremendous help against pretty much anyone. -1 Ld also helps if you manage to win combat.

    Chain Lightning is powerful, but only if he has several units it can bounce to. Otherwise, don't bother.
     
  12. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    Thank for all that helped, so, played the champaign. And I am not enjoying Lizards at all.

    Here is why.
    1. Everyone and their dog seem to have spells (That I can never deny) that are pass I test or die.
    2. Everyone is going first, and I i do get to go first I can never hurt anything.
    3. All the other armies outnumbered me and had tougher, harder hitting troops and better magic users. Hell, if I want a Lv4 mage I gonna spend 300 points (and 25£) for one but anyone else gets a lv 4 for less points and is tougher.
    4. Low leadership, I failed every leadership test. All 25 times with my saurus warriors. (Granted I would be losing 1-2 Ld but really? Failing 4 ld7 tests in a row.
    5. I came bottom of 10 army's with 0 wins, 0 draws and is 10 losses.

    I love the look of the army but...why are dinosaurs soo easy to kill?

    And I'm not raging, annoyed yes but I'm only mad that I spent 200£ to not even win a single game.
     
  13. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    1. Yep. The main flaw in the current magic system. Irresistable Forcing a Purple Sun can decimate our entire army with no problem at all, which is incredibly unbalanced. Really hoping 9th edition fixes this. Bastiladon with solar engine can help this a bit, by giving your units +1 initiative, but you can't really defend properly against it, sadly. To put it into perspective, most houserule-systems, like the ETC (The "official" european tournament scene) limits death magic HEAVILY to help stop armies from being decimated from a single cast.

    2. This is true, hence why people sometimes take Light to give initiative/ASF. Going last often isn't a problem, because we aren't that good in CC anyway, so you want flank charges to help reduce the counter attacks. Skinks are incredibly good for this, because they are cheap, fast, and have some fairly powerful shooting, with stand and shoot. They are pretty much the best redirecters in the game, and if you can master using them, you'll rarely have to deal with front charges (from either side) with your Saurus.

    Basically, this is only a problem if you aren't using enough skinks. As with everything else, if you say "I can't deal with x", it can usually be solved with skinks. They are disposable, and will often earn back their points, if not in kills, then in messing up the position of the enemy.

    Our Saurus characters have a low initiative, which is about the only balanced thing about them. Give them a 1+ armour save and 4+ ward save and a great weapon, and they can take on pretty much anything in the game. It's almost sad how ridiculously powerful this is, because even a unit of slayers can realistically be held up and killed to the last man by a single scar veteran, despite their deathblows, so they can not only take the hits, they can also dish out an insane amount of hurt. 5 PF attacks with S7 will hurt pretty much anything.

    3. Better and tougher units? Depends entirely on which armies you faced. Humans and elves are almost always more squishy than our Saurus. Our magic users being bad? uhh... I'll just move on to 4...

    Wait, seriously?

    I... What? Really? I'm sorry, but I don't even know where to begin with this. Wow, dude. Coldblooded leadership 8 on saurus is amazing, and almost the equivalent of leadership 10.

    I think I'll refrain from commenting on those points. I'm sorry to hear you are disappointed with your lizardmen, but point 3 and 4 seriously tempts me into calling you a troll, because this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say Lizardmen have bad leadership and have squishy mages that suck at casting.

    Skinks will fail their leadership tests, but keeping them outside of the panic zone helps alleviate this. Losing them is acceptable loses anyway, because they are so ridiculously cheap.
     
  14. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    Thankyou for your comments. I'm just mythed as I following the advice, and it seemed to help my foe.

    Example: A unit of Bonecrushers fail their frenzy test and charge my skinks. I stand and shoot cause he needed a 10 up even with his movement to make the charge. I kill one of three but he still makes the charge, kills the entire unit of 12 before I can even try to him once. And he just slams into the side of my saurus instead, as rules say he can, reform and overrun. Now I guess this was to poor placement on my part but this kept happening. Cause of that free reform.

    And as for th ld tests...I'm known in the 40k games to have the most cowardly space marines, I always roll high for ld, and low for anything else. I even failed a 3" charge, 3 times! But the saddest part...i was the only one using non-limited gw dice. Which leads me to think that my dice are bad but no. I asked if for one game I swapped dice with my foe. Was 9down so had no way to win. And I still roles poorly and I was accused of giving him loaded dice cause he rolled 5 2*6 in a roll and then the GW staff did a further 3 times. So I know the dice are not to blame.

    Yes, I had a couple of good moment when one block of saurus slaughtered a block of 8 stone trolls and caused a block of 50 night goblins to run off the border but their then got mobbed by 200 of the buggers. 10 2 1 is not good odds.

    While I don't want to drop an army I just paid for and built...other armies are looking just soo much stronger. Why did I pick what looking nice? Last time I take GW advice :(
     
  15. Dinomokk
    Skink

    Dinomokk New Member

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    Hey, sounds like you've had your share of bad luck. Just wanted to say that reforming and then overrunning in the same turn sounds like cheating. After annihilating your opponent in combat the turn you charged, you can choose to either overrun or reform. You cannot do both, as it seems like your opponent did. Also, baiting frenzy charges is a good strategy, but since this is a game of dice it sadly won't always go your way.

    Did you remember to use the coldblooded trait on your leadership tests? (throw 3 dice, remove the highest)

    I think the saurus only get better when you go higher in points, allowing you to play them deeper than 15. Saurus are OK against a lot of things, but since they are so low initiative they need to have extra models in order to dish out enough damage. Even if you lose just 5 models, which seems likely, your saurus are already hamstrung before they get to attack back. Units of 25 / 30 seems to be the norm, but I understand that the low point limit sort of restricts what you could afford.

    Remember that your mages have access to "Dispel Scroll", which automaticly dispels a spell unless it was cast with Irresistible force. Can be crucial if you are facing tougher mages!

    Anyways, don't give up on the dinosaurs just yet! :D Give it some time and try again, I'm sure you've learned a lot about warhammer in general after this tournament, so use that to your advantage next time!

    BTW, how did the scarvet on carnosaur do?
     
  16. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    The scar vat? Failed most of his charges, the carnisaur failed to wound anything in the whole campaign. And got one shot cause Int test or die. The vat himself killed about 5 guys, most of the time failing to even hit people (guy loves his 2s). Everyone said they were terrified of him util they remember is me behind the dice.

    Poor dice roll, amy builds to get around this?
     
  17. Skinquisitor
    Kroxigor

    Skinquisitor Member

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    Hey man!

    I really do not wish to 'attack' or 'hurt' you, but:
    - you seem to be a new guy to lizzies and the game. when you start any game, really, any, youll be unexperienced and unfamiliar with the rules. most of the cases, this is enough to loose all of your battles, since you wont using your units as they were intended. dont worry, youll learn, just keep playing and read a lot, watch videos, ask experienced players!
    - the army list you used wasnt really good for anything, a bit of this, a bit of that, but in general, i think it lacked a concept, probably due to lack of experience
    - spending 200 pound wont buy you the experience and skills, even 2000 wont. keep playing and learning, read tactica of the individual units, and how they work together, check how they affect one another! if you are familiar with all this, start trying out the units in friendly games! youll see how they work in real situation, and youll find out wich units you like the most, wich playstile fits you, since lizardmen offer many options, for example you can be a tricky skink, sit back and shoot and bombard with spells your opponent, while avoiding cc wherever you can, or you can become an agressive saurus guy, field many cowboy, these guys are strong enough to withstand the attacks of the strongest things wfhb has to offer, and strike back with such power and savage brutality that your opponents will sit down and cry like little bitches when you beat the shit out of their general like it was nothing but a piece of dead meat.

    Stand up, man, and shake off your negative experiences, read, learn, next time youll be the one to defeat everyone!
     
  18. Gary_M
    Razordon

    Gary_M Well-Known Member

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    @ChocRage, stick with it my friend.

    Last year (maybe 2013) I came back to Lizards after c25 years away from WFB, playing historical wargames.

    It is a VERY steep learning curve (it certainly was for me).

    My first few games were truely awful affairs. Tabled time and again.

    But slowly my game play is improving and I've started to win a game every now and then.

    The fact that you appear tied into certain units/builds might be an issue now but play more games, use different builds etc and see what works for you.

    When I first started, the idea of redirecting/baiting was completely alien to me, but I think I'm getting there.

    I now see the greatness of skinks, even though I'll never use an army without some saurus warriors in it.

    Keep the faith and take on board what posters say on here. As mentioned above, watch Youtube batreps involving Lizardmen. These are good for showing both how to use, and perhaps more importantly, how not to use certain units.

    When I think about some of my early army/character builds.... :D :oops: Having taken this advice, my scar vets are now much better as surviving and dishing out pain.

    Personally, I'm not interested in any other army out there in WFB (if GW cut us out of the fluff, they lose at least one customer!), so win or lose I still love our Aztec dinos. You have to play with an army you love, so while I say keep the faith, only do so on this basis.

    Good luck! (and hoping you stick with us cold bloods)
     
  19. Padre
    Stegadon

    Padre Well-Known Member

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    I'm probably not going to say much different than anything else, but it looks like you got screwed over by the set up. It really ups the already high learning curve if you can't adjust your list in light of the things you learn in the first few battles.

    I'd recommend two things. First, go over the rules in the main book. Then, go over them again. Read ever rule. Finally, go back and do it a third time. Or more. The more you read and understand the rules, the less likely it will be that someone will be able to accidently or purposefully cheat you. The reform, then overrun is wrong, It's one or the other. Otherwise, Predatory Fighter would be less problematic for us.

    Second, read the Lizardmen special rules and know your own book solid. I've been playing quite a lot and sitll forget things on a regular basis.

    Going forward, I'd recommend running your Saurus in a single block of 30 and adding some Cowboy Scarvets, Cold Ones, and Temple Guard. Also, look at everything else in the book. Good luck.

    Padre
     
  20. ChocRage
    Skink

    ChocRage New Member

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    New list, please comment and advise:

    Lords and Heroes
    Oldblood on Cold One (Fencer's Blades, Armour of Destiny) 0+ Armour (or 1+ up if i was right the first time around) with a 4+ ward)
    Skink Priest (LV2)
    Skink Priest (LV2)

    Core
    25 Saurus warriors (shields and hand weapons, Full command)
    10 Skink Skirmishers

    Specal
    10 Temple guard (Full command, Sword of might on revered guardian)

    5 Cold One riders (Musician and Standard)

    List is still 1250, not buying any more until i know i'm going to enjoy the army, pushed myself to give one last go with awesome lizards, why you ask? Cause Dinos.
     

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