7th Ed. Greetings From the Under Empire!

Been playing Skaven for a few years now. My flatmate has become utterly discouraged playing me with his O&G and is looking into starting a Lizardmen army. I was wondering if anyone would be interested in putting up a list tailored to beat Skaven specifically. We're going to proxy a few games to get a feel for the army before he goes ahead and starts picking up models.

Point value is 2250.

 

Well since I don't have much time right now for list making I can definitately offer some advice.
Lots of magic and skinks

 

I can see the reason for loading up on magic, but that's a pretty generic arms race. Skaven magic is extremely potent with both lores in the new edition.

In regards to the Skinks, could you be a bit more specific? From what I understand, ranked up skinks with Kroxigors in them are no longer a viable unit because of the strength reduction.

In my experiences with Lizardmen, Skink skirmishers crumble like newspaper in close combat and generally speaking, all of the blowguns in Lustria aren't going to be enough to deter a charge from Clanrats. You're also at high risk of being double charged by both clanrats and slaves. I've run down skink priests with a charge from a slave unit no problem multiple times.

Also, a Stormbanner could be taken and saved for the turn I would be charging which would further reduce the damage from blowguns.

 

Most people won't do up a list for you, generally if you do up a basic list and post it saying, "I want to fight X army, please help," people will help you edit your list to fit the bill...

Personally I'd say a slann with usual kit and Becalming Cogitation and lots of saurus, ranked 6 wide with spears, potential 24 strength 4 attacks from one unit!

 

Maybe this post should be relocated to a Tactics forum or something... I would love to bounce ideas off you guys to help fine tune both of our strategies. Personally, I mull over lists and write stuff up pretty habitually. I understand most people don't like to draw up lists from scratch, but since I know I would, I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

In regards to the Slaan. I'm not familiar with the particular kit you are refering to, but Skaven have a new spell that can force him to take an Initiative check or be removed from the game. No saves of any kind are allow, nor can you use the MR from the unit to dispel. The range of this spell is randomized from 4-24 inches (4d6). Because this spell is not a template or a war machine, no Look Out, Sir! rolls are permitted.

I don't think large blocks of Saurus are going to be able to stand up to 7th ed. Skaven very well. One of the biggest changes in out book is lots and lots of template weapons. In addition, the rules have been modified (possibly a preview of 8th ed BRB) to state that all models touched by the templates are automatically hit. There are no rolls for partials with any of our templates in the new book.

 

Interesting, does this spell require line of sight? (hmm... really going off topic now...)

Becalming cogitation requires you to discard every 6 the slanns opponent rolls to cast, he can also personally get MR3... presuming he can use his own MR...

Unfortunately, (or fortunately for you!) from what I understand, Skaven are now a very multi-dimensional army, who can tailor armies very well to suit their needs, tactically my best hunches would be to screen the Saurus with Skirmishers, get in there and give the rats what for, Saurus may not be ideal but I understand theres nasty means for the skaven to deal with most of our options...

Parting thought, maybe salamanders could be useful... templates and strength 3 -3 to save...

 

Nothing is off topic! I've been working night shift and the forums on the Under Empire don't update fast enough to hold my attention. I'm really just looking for an all inclusive tactica Lizardmen vs. Skaven being arch-rivals and all.

Crack's Call draws a line 4d6 inches away from caster. There is no "target" unit (so no MR3) and no LoS required.
Scorch is another heavy hitter that uses a small template (no partials, all auto-hits) that is "placed" anywhere within 24 inches of the caster. Again, no LoS or target unit. The rules indicate that you roll to see if the spell goes off, then place the template so the enemy wouldn't even know where it's going when deciding to dispel or not.

In regards to LoS in general, the Grey Seer (skaven lvl4 wizard lord) is typically always fielded with the new Screaming Bell which is a large target and offers 360 degree firing arc.


The rule of thumb when fielding a Skaven army is obviously the horde aspect. I run 3 blocks of 30 clanrats with a wizard in each. In addition, you'll be up against 2 monsters (Doomwheel or HPA), multiple units of slaves, AND and impressive battery of warmachines. The idea is that, while none of these units are particularly game-winning (or even very good at all compare to other army elite units), you don't have enough shots/spells to hit them all. SOMETHING is going to get through. Chances are, several things will get through and work together to swarm past whatever is in their way.


I can field all of these things in an all-comers list without even tailoring to anyone in particular.




Some possible weaknesses with the army as I see it:

7th ed. took away out 25pt throw-away skirmishing units. Before we could really cover our asses (quite literally) with 4 5-man units of skirmishers for a mere 100 points. These units are now rank and file, as well as our swarm units. Unless the skaven are lined up board edge to board edge, their flanks are where you need to hit them. This will drop a unit from Ld 8 down to 5 and rob us of almost all of our CR.

I don't know how effective Terradons are, but you definately need warmachine hunters and lots of highly mobile flanking units to deal with us effectively. You need BOTH of these, however, because our warmachines can shred flanking units and our infantry can screen warmachines.



I'll wait for some more feedback before I post more... This is already way too long >.<




TL;DR

Think outside the box, Skaven will blast you to hell.

How can you kill our warmachines and outflank us?

 

Hmm great topic, and yes I think I will move this to the Tactics forum. It is a good idea to get the feel of your opponent's army and to know what to expect and have an idea of what his units are capable of. Your friend should definitely give the Skaven book a thorough read.

As for a tailored army list, I do not recommend it. I am a big fan of an all-round take all comers list, you should tailor your tactics not your list. I have fought the new Skaven a couple of times (With my HE) and will no doubt be facing them a lot more soon so I will be interested to exploit their weaknesses more. Its 4am here so I will give this topic some thought and try to give some more specific feedback later.

 

"Because this spell is not a template or a war machine, no Look Out, Sir! rolls are permitted."

Definitely a template weapon, the same way a cannon is a template weapon. "A straight line" is a type of template, as cannons have sufficiently demonstrated. Do we really need to FAQ this one? Either that, or you get no LoS rolls from cannons either, and we've been doing it wrong the whole time. Of course, that fact that "Look out Sir" was created as a rule to prevent cannon sniping doesn't seem to enter in to this discussion... because (say it with me) "it's not a cannon!"

I remember when the Lizardmen came out, everyone was all excited about their skink chiefs giving their stegadon giant bows a BS of 5. BS5 bolt throwers ftw! Seemed too good to be true, and it was. The reasoning was in fact incredibly similar. The BRB says characters can't use their BS to fire warmachines, unless specifically stated. Well the giant bow isn't technically a warmachine, but a "howdah weapon". Alas, the FAQ spaketh the giant bow was in fact to be treated as a bolt thrower. Same thing with a spell that has a line template like a cannon. Although I think the case is much weaker this time around, I am not surprised to see the rules lawyers at work already. Very creative!

Aside from this, it is still a worrysome enough spell that the Slann should turn his attention toward the caster of the spell. Stegadons and saurus all have very poor initiative. But a Slann can take Becalming Cogitation, which allows him to cause a caster within 24" to discard all rolls of 6 to cast. So no irresistible force casts in other words, and if it does actually go off it can be scrolled. The Slann will also have Cupped Hands of the Old Ones that can transfer one of his own miscasts to an enemy wizard within 24" and line of sight, which can in fact pick off an unlucky wizard.

Is there a specific type of Skaven list you want this tailored against? Grey Seer on bell, abominations, doomwheel? I'm not even sure what the standard types for Skaven lists are yet.

 

In regards to Crack's Call:

A cannon is a war machine. War machines need line of sight, and Look Out, Sir! specifically says it will protect you from warmachines and spells that use templates. The 4 templates used in the game are the Blast Template, the Large Blast Template, and the Flame Template.

You are correct that the rules lawyers are at work like with any book, but this particular spell is not such a case. The spell text is as follows: "A crack appears in the ground at the caster's feet and runs for 4d6" in a straight line in any direction in the caster's arc of sight. Any models in its path must make an Initiative test to leap out of the way. Models that fail are removed as casualties...." There are additional rules for warmachines and chariots but for copyright purposes I will exclude that part.

I am not trying to spark arguments, but unless you can cite a page reference from the BRB... Your Slaan will be taking an initiative test or be killed outright with no saves of any kind.




Here is an example of an All-Comers list that has been substantially nerfed for friendly play:
http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=31055

What you can generally expect to be in most competitive lists:
-Seer on bell
-2-3 other wizards

2-3 blocks of 30 clanrats

~3 blocks of 20 slaves

1-2 units of Plague Censor Bearers

Jezzails

1-2 Doomwheels and/or Hellpit Abominations (both are VERY nasty terror causing monster-ish things)

Variety of warmachines
-Warp-Lightning Cannon fires like a normal cannon now with variable strength and always ignores all armor saves
-Warp-fire Thrower is good again
-Stone-thrower weapons teams that can move and shoot



All of the above items listed can fit easily into a 2250 All-comers list with additional units depending on the player's taste.


(I'm hoping to be able to bounce ideas off folks from this site rather than create rules debates. Something along the lines of "oh well bring 3 stegadons" vs "lol stegadons, I'll bring more warp lightning cannons)
Thoughts...?

 

"A cannon is a war machine. War machines need line of sight, and Look Out, Sir! specifically says it will protect you from warmachines and spells that use templates. The 4 templates used in the game are the Blast Template, the Large Blast Template, and the Flame Template."

The fourth template is of course the straight line template used by the cannon and by spells such as burning head and cracks call. I guess you could say there are 5 templates if you want to count the "fallen giant" template. Six if you want to count the template created by Chaos Dwarf blunderbuss units. I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting, but let me explain what a template is. A template is anything you lay down on the table and touch models with to see what is hit. In the case of a cannon or a spell like this one or burning head, your template is a straight line of varying length.

Stegadons seem like a genuinely bad idea against skaven. The Doomwheel's shooting attack or anything the abomination does could easily tear a steggie to bits. Not to mention all sorts of war machines. I'd say for starters the Lizardmen are going to need more skink skirmishers than usual. Terradons will hate the storm banner, but oh well, gotta live with it. Oh wait, I suppose you are the type who would argue the storm banner can be used multiple times?

Bah, I don't care enough to continue. Just play the game for fun, not to win all the time.

 

First of all, this is an open forum for everyone to speak their mind and I don't think we should start pursuing each other over silly rules in the game.

Now that that's out of the way, I think the key to beating Skaven is getting their flanks. Sure, there are like... 200 models in that list but if you hit them in the flank and beat them even if just by one... suddenly they need a 4 or lower to stay. Even skinks have a decent chance at beating a clanrat/slave unit in the flank. The trick is going to be getting there first. If skaven generals try to protect their flanks with other blocks of troops, you'll just have to hit them hard with your support units. The game will be won on the flanks.

I'm not sure what this storm banner does... but it can't really stop chameleon skinks can it? Those guys could still get to his cannons and war machines if that's what is giving you trouble. And I think you've taken your first step to victory if he castles his skaven around his war machines to protect them.

The thing I worry about the most is anything with the word Plague in the name, the doom wheel and the abomination. Fortunately, the doom wheel and abomination are very unreliable so for every game they hit you on the second turn, there will be the game where they do nothing.

Skaven is going to be a tough list to beat but the Slann is so powerful he can probably match all the spell casters in the example list (minues this crack spell that I've never heard of).

I'd say cold one cavalry are going to be good against skaven. Skinks are going to be needed to use poison on the monsters and set up your charges. A slann will also be key for shutting them down. An oldblood on a carnosaur might be interesting though, it'll cut down rat ogres and hopefully that abomination in a couple of hits.


Honestly, I can't wait to play new Skaven to see how these two lists work out

 

4th template I was referring to was the Fallen Giant Template. All of these Templates have the word "Template" in its description. - - - I just double checked the FAQ articles posted on the website and I don't see anything that clarified the Burning Head spell you mentioned.

I promise you I'm not here to start arguments. Honestly I wasn't even expecting rules debates. However, this particular issue is pretty heavily argued on my own forums as well so I'll say again: Please offer references to actual rules including page numbers or FAQ documents that clarify the issue.
You said that
"A template is anything you lay down on the table and touch models with to see what is hit. In the case of a cannon or a spell like this one or burning head, your template is a straight line of varying length."
If you could please let me/us know where this statement comes from we could happily bury the issue here and back in the Under Empire as well.

(as a side note to your comment in regards to the Storm Banner, it has unofficially been acknowledged as an error in the book AND is printed properly in foreign editions of the book -German and Spanish iirc- Unfortunately, RAW will allow you to activate the banner at the start of every turn until a FAQ is released, or a house rule is enforced)



Moving on to actual strategy discussion:

I would agree that Stegadons are a bad idea against Skaven. I know I can hardly hold back my grins when I see them getting lined up across the table from me.

I would agree that Terradons are an excellent way to outmaneuver the Skaven, but they still will be getting shot at and seeing combat. How viable are they in close combat as flanking units? A Skaven player will have enough units on the table to actually be able to deploy some of them facing backwards in order to protect their war machines. Like I said, you'll need to be able to outflank AND hunt war machines simultaneously in order to completely wipe the table with rats.

I'm also curious as to how mass amounts of skinks will help the cause. Skinks are susceptible to panic with a leadership of 6 and have a relatively short range for their blowpipes. Is the idea to simply swarm with them and hope for lots of 6s with the poisoned blow darts or is there more you can do with them? Please keep in mind I have very little experience with the Lizardmen book and tactics so each units particular strengths and weaknesses may not be apparent to me.

 

Salamanders seem like a great option to me. Flame template and auto-panic from any wounds caused can be a big hit to the Skaven. I know they get all those leadership bonuses, but there will still be plenty of units on the flanks far from the general.

Saurus are going to have no trouble eating whatever unit they face. The problem will be the general speed of the skaven army. Skink skirmishers are good not only for their poison, but also for march blocking and redirecting charges, but entire ranked slave units do that just as cheaply unfortunately.

 

Don't forget that Skinks are cold blooded.
"3d6 discard the highest for leadership."

Whilst they may be virtually worthless in terms of survivability they are well good when you move on the flank with them, the place where the skaven won't get you without shooting you with warmachines.
That is of course what you will hesitate to do with warmachines, as it's not really worth shooting them.
But I haven't played skaven with the new book yet either, so I may be wrong.

Cold one riders could probably play as a good part in a list against skaven though, they're hard to take down without high strength or ignoring armour, they also hit harder than anything the skaven can field if they get the charge(Which they probably will.)

But yet again, I've never played the new book, so take my words with a pinch of salt.

Cheers!

 

Some really good ideas so far.

I'm not exactly sure how Salamanders work, but it doesn't sound like they have the range to be worth their points. The flame template is good, but since you're rolling for partials and need to be very short range theres a good chance it'll get blasted before it gets to do anything worthwhile.

Using skink skirmishers to charge flanks is an interesting idea. I think that's going to be the core of a tailored list to beat Skaven. A few concerns though:
-Skaven now have access to multiple Terror causing units, as well as the risk of Skink groups panicking each other from missile fire and such. Is this a valid concern or does cold blooded usually keep them happy?

Cold One Cavalry is very good. However, Skaven now have access to reliable high strength shooting AND low strength shooting that ignores armor saves. In addition, in my game today I was able to bait this unit with a block of my own. The Cold One's wiped out a unit of my Plague Monks which included a wizard, but they were also wiped out from a counter-charge costing him more points than what my monks were worth.

I think the cavalry would have to be very very well guarded in order to be used effectively.

 

From what I understand, weapon teams can now be targetted seperate to their units, meaning their prey to skinks/ Terradons (both drop rocks and Javelins) etc.

We may even see an influx of skrox units, since their faster and better for flank attacks... even a 11 skink/ 1 Krox block could cause some havoc if they managed a flank charge, just look out for plague monks as they'll probably be able to knock down enough skinks to scrape through (presuming they have at least 2 attacks each)

Salamanders roll the artillery dice, and you place the pointy tip of the breath template that far away, you essentially have around a 16" range ( I think the breath templates around 6"?)

So units to take as I see them

DO TAKE
Saurus blocks (lots of attacks, tough)
Skinks (skirmisher screens/ harrassment, potential for Skrox units for flanking)
Salamanders (templates VS block infantry is great)
Terradons (anti weapons teams/ artillery also handy for harrassment)

DO NOT TAKE
Stegadons (lots of anti monster gear)

Of course, a lot of the game will come down to the players, its very easy to say "I can counter X unit with Y unit", but what if your opponent is smart enough to not let you make that match up?

From what I've seen, Skaven are very much a ranked horde army with lots of artillery/ magic to soften their opponents up, they now seem to lack though, any throw away manouverable units, the possible exception being Giant Rat packs ( haven't heard if these work as fast Cav or anything...?) so manuoverability would, I believe be the key to bringing them down.

 

Maybe, but remember the weapon teams have 4+ ward saves when next to their parent unit now. I find charging them to be more effective, but only with fliers or from close range since they can unfortunately stand and shoot.