7th Ed. blowpipes vs Javelins

So can someone explain to me what are the advantages to Javelins vs Blowpipes for skinks?

I usually give all my skinks blowpipes and usually double tap, for maximum hit possibilities.

I think that using blowpipes is a no brainer, but yet I see so many lists consisting of skinks with javelins. What is the advantage of this?

 

The advantage to the Javelin primarily comes from it being a thrown weapon. As such, you suffer no penalty for long range, and you don't suffer a penalty to moving and shooting. So, the effective range for a Javelin is basically 14" (6" movement, 8" range). Also, you get the shield with the javelin, which gives you a save vs. shooting. It's only a 6+, but it's better than nothing. The set up is usually used for screening units and harriers who spend most, if not all of the game, on the move.

 

I also used to use skinks with all blowpipes, but against my WE opponent they just weren't doing the trick. So I gave javelins a shot with larger skink units and by God that destroyed my enemy without exception.

 

Thanks for the advise. I really never thought about the non movement penalty with the javelins. That does make them pretty nasty. So what opponents would you consider to use the javelins most likely on.

I might give it a try on my next tourney. So let me get this right. I give my scouting skinks blowpipes and put my screening skinks have javelins correct? Now do I charge the enemy with these skinks with the javelins or do I flee?

 

i like to have a combination both since working together i find the very effective with certain tactics. for example, i send a unit of blowpipes that have inaccurate double shots to fire on a large unit, if that doesn't send them into panic as planned i use a unit of javelins as a clean-up unit with their high accuracy from the use of thrown weapons to finish them off. essentially i have a hail of darts from blowpipes take out a chunk of a unit, and if they don't go into panic, use almost guaranteed shots from javelins to do so.

camo-skink

 

It depends on what type of skink you are talking about. For the skirmishing once (since they are the only ones with the option) the main advantage of blowpipes is they don't cost an extra point per model. Both weapons are effective in their own ways, and different people have different ways of using them, but really skinks are meant to be a cheap unit there is no need to make them more expensive. I don't think the shield matters much since hardly anything will shoot you with the -1 to hit for skirmishing, and if something does chances are it will negate the 6+ anyway. I'd stick to blowpipes.

 

i also like blowpipes better, i have 7 units with 12 each of them, and only 2 units of 12 javelins. so like i said the only reason why i have them is because of their high accuracy.

 

I've done the mathhammer a few times. Against T3 targets it about equals out. Against T4 and up, blowpipes win by sheer number of dice and praying for the old ones to get you 6's =D

I could see the jav ones being used a bit more aggressively for CC though against light targets, 5+ save could mean difference between breaking light cav or warmachine, and hilariously losing.

 

your right in saying that blowpipes can let out a lot more shots increasing the chance of rolling 6's for poison, but just as that is their advantage it is their down fall. since double shot is a -1 to hit modifier you have to choose between moving and shooting long range to keep at rolling 6's to hit, because if it's 7+ to hit your poison is no longer in effect. this is why it's nice to also have javelins.

camo-skink

 

If you need to move to shoot you can always choose to go with single shot blowpipes instead of multi to still have poison.. It has been shown by stats that single shot with 6 to hit is more effective than multi shot with 7 to hit.

Anglewuff, I am interested. Did you account for armour in your maths? Poison for sure is not as effective against high armour units, do multi shot blowpipes still outperform javelins when their armour is high?

 

Armor saves happen after wounds have been calculated, so there is no difference at all in how well they perform against armor. But as far as toughness goes...

Vs T3
10 skirmishers
Blowpipes, double shot hitting on 6'a
20 shots --> 20/6 wounds = 3.33 wounds

10 ranked
Javelins, hitting on 4+
10 shots --> (10/3 hit)*(1/2 wound T3) + (10/6 poison) --> 1.67 + 1.67 = 3.33 wounds

So what this means is that 10 shots from javelins at their typical accuracy will produce the same number of wounds on average as the typical accuracy of blowpipes. I say javelins typically hit on 4+ because they never take move and shoot OR range penalties. Blowpipes will start out hitting on 5+ with double shot, and can only take one more penalty, either range or movement. I find it is pretty rare for the enemy to just waltz up next to the skink skirmishers within short range of the blowpipes. If the enemy were foolish enough to do that, you are looking at an average of 5 wounds vs. T3, as then you'd be hitting them with all of those 5's.

Now, the same math performed at different levels of toughness.

Vs T2
Blowpipes = 3.33 wounds
Javelins = 3.89 wounds

Vs T3
3.33 wounds for both

Vs T4
Blowpipes = 3.33 wounds
Javelins = 2.78 wounds

Vs T5
Blowpipes = 3.33 wounds
Javelins = 2.23 wounds

So you begin to see the picture, below T3 poison and lots of shots are less important than accuracy, and javelins actually do better. Also consider the javelins for shooting at enemy skirmishers, since you will still hit them on a 5+, where the blowpipes probably won't be able to double fire and so aren't as useful against skirmishers. On the other hand, blowpipes hitting on 6's are consistent across the board.. think about it, if they only hit on 6's you never roll to wound!

 

very nice calculations, it's interesting to know that while on average blowpipes score the same amount of wounds, where as the javelin's wound score changes depending on the enemies toughness, but they do have the upside of being able to take down skirmishers. also as a side note, i make my javelin units skirmishers to have some protection.
if you have only skinks as core units like me it a good idea to have variety for all the reasons previously mentioned.

camo-skink

 

Well if you take the math a step further and factor in the point cost of each unit, then the ranked javelins start to look even better. Just think that for those extra 20 points for upgrading to skirmishers, you could have 4 more javelineers. Factoring in the cost of the units, the javelins are better value vs. T3 and T4 troops, with T5 finally putting the blowpipes ahead of the game. That is to say, if you were to take equal points worth of javelineers and blowpipe skirmishers, you would do more damage with the javelins until you started firing at T5.

I would not say that it's a great idea to upgrade to skirmishers with javelins, just take some of each unit as they are by default. The real differences come in the movement phase. Skirmishers are more flexible with 360 LOS and can form a nice screen and are -1 to hit. The ranked skinks can take away rank bonuses and can redirect chargers, since the chargers will have to align to them.

Also consider the kind of units that come around flanks... they are typically light troops around toughness 3 and some of them will be skirmishers. So really, the blowpipes only come out to be the superior option when you are talking about things that are a bit tougher. And don't forget that neither option is really going to do much damage against armored targets, that's where the salamanders come in.

 

the reason why i upgrade them to skirmisher is for the reason you said they are more fluid and mobile in the movement phase which is one of their only defenses anyway, thanks for the advice, though when it comes to rare units i prefer razordons over salamanders.

camo-skink

 

I think you might have it backwards... you can't upgrade standard ranked javelin skinks to be skirmishers... skirmishers are a separate unit that comes with blowpipes. Now the blowpipe skirmishers CAN upgrade to javelins, but at that point you have an 80 point unit. At least, the way you refer to upgrading skinks into skirmishers makes me wonder how you are figuring the points cost. Basically...

10 skinks w/shield and jav 50 points
10 skink skirmishers 70 points
10 skink skirmishers with javelins 80 points

Is how it should break down, though I'm not certain that's how you understand it?

As to razordons vs. salamanders... you might want to check out some of the extensive analysis they've received.

 

i know that you first have to upgrade to skirmishers then upgrade to javelins, and i'm willing to pay the extra points because i find that my skinks are much better as skirmishers, besides skirmishing is also a theme in my army.

also, i look at some of the debates on salamanders and razordons, and they both have their ups and downs, but in the end they pretty much equal out ability wise, so i'm just going to stick to razordons since i have them already and don't to spend more money. i know, i'm cheap.

camo-skink

 

You could also just run them as salamanders to start to get a feel for them. Most of the discussions have pretty much concluded that razordons aren't as effective or useful as salamanders, especially if you already have lots of blowpipe shots and javelins flying everywhere. Strength 4 shots seem better, but when you think about it...

compare strength 3 poison and strength 4 normal, assuming they both hit 50% of the time

Vs T3
10 javelin shots, hitting on 4+, poison on 6
10 shots --> (10/3 hit)*(1/2 wound T3) + (10/6 poison) --> 1.67 + 1.67 = 3.33 wounds

A razordon averages out to 5 shots, factoring in all possible rolls including misfire
5 shots, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+
2.5 hits * (2/3) = 1.67 wounds

Yes, the math is correct, your 75 point razordon is handily outperformed by the lowly 50 point ranked unit of skinks. To be fair, let's add in some armor for the target, since the strength 4 will help penetrate it a little bit.

Vs 6+ armor
javs - 3.33 * (5/6) = 2.78 unsaved wounds
razor - 1.67 unsaved wounds

5+ armor
javs - 3.33 * (2/3) = 2.22 unsaved wounds
razor - 1.67 * (5/6) = 1.39 unsaved wounds

etc... Basically the -1 armor helps, but only a little bit.. and not enough to put the razordon ahead.

So you see the damage output isn't as great as it first appears. You have to realize you are rolling for the number of shots, not the number of hits. Think of it this way, with the skinks you automatically always roll a '10' for number of shots. Another funny thing to realize... if 5 razordon shots yields 1.67 wounds against a T3 target... then even if you roll a perfect 10 shots, you can expect 3.33 wounds which is exactly the same as the skink javelineers! In that rare case, you could expect the razordon to be marginally better if the target has any armor whatsoever, but that is BEST CASE scenario. Also remember, that as the enemy toughness increases, so too does the advantage of poison compared to the unpoisoned razordon barb. It would look just like the previous series of calculations with the blowpipes vs. javelins... as toughness went up, the poisoned hits became more important.

So why am I comparing razordons to javelineers you might ask? Other than to remain somewhat on topic, there is another good reason. The type of shooting is VERY SIMILAR. This in a sense makes razordons somewhat redundant and unnecessary in an army that goes skink-heavy (as well as being overpriced).

Now adding in a unit with a template weapon, that has a -3 AP factor, cancels regeneration, and causes a free panic check... that adds an element of depth to your army that Razordons can't hope to provide.

 

i'll try them as salamanders to see how they play, but i just want to note that defensively razordons are very good, though when attacking lack much ability, and vice versa for salamanders, or at least thats how i see it. by the way where does it say that salamanders always cause a free panic test? i must have missed that.

camo-skink

 

Even though not awesome in mathhammer, Razordons are one of the units which can potentially perform feats of utter insanity. I am going to occasionally run razors in my future army, if only for the possibility of the sheer lulz they can cause.
In a friendly game using the salamander misfire rules of course >

 

I like using salamanders because their flaming attack is more different from normal skink shooting than the razordon's shooting is. My army strategy is to have a very diverse range of troops, and, as I frequently battle low-Ld O&G armies the panic test is quite useful.

I also like the look of the salamander better.