1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

8th Ed. Basics against Dwarves: How NOT to get shot off the table

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Army Lists' started by Matzotyl, Apr 6, 2015.

  1. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    So one of my friends recently won a Dwarf army off of Ebay and it looks like our group will be playing against a pretty nasty list soon. Seeing as how as of right now I rely mostly on my Stegadon and Carnosaur how do I avoid having them shot off the table Turn 1 and not watch my Lizardmen get blown apart to the dwarven cannons? He didn't go into the details of what he bought, but he did mention two cannons, an Organ Gun and a Gyrocopter. I've never faced them before (he's the first in the group to play them) and I don't really know what to expect besides lots and lots of shooting coming my way.
     
  2. lordkingcrow
    Temple Guard

    lordkingcrow Active Member

    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    107
    Trophy Points:
    28
    You don't avoid it. Monsters are difficult to run against gun lines. You simply have to change your strategy. Skirmishers, riders, anything to tie up those warmachines fast. Magic as well, but they are pretty good at shutting down magic for a round or two. I have a dwarf army as well and I love seeing big targets. When I don't see those high point/large targets, I'm forced to just use them as support pieces rather than tide changers. One strategy I've always thought would be a good idea, but up until now has not been used, is having a unit of skirmishers in front of your infantry units. This reduces the efficiency of the organ gun which has to roll to hit. It either has to aim at the skirmish unit (-1 to hit) or the unit directly behind it (-1 to hit for being in partial cover).
    Also, if he (like myself) decides that gun lines just aren't all that fun, dwarfs can now become extremely aggressive. It's called a "Strollaz" army and what happens is that the dwarf units take magic banners that allow the unit to vanguard. Gyros are cheap and annoying. They fire a str.3 flame template with -1 armor. Their biggest weaknesses are lack of maneuverability and magic. Scratch that. Just maneuverability. They really don't need magic to compete. Don't get into a grind with Ironbreakers. They have 3+ armor and a constant 5+ parry even when flanked, so don't assume you can take it away from them. Hammerers are nasty in close combat, WS 5 and two attacks at strength 6, but they only have 5+ armor. Anyway, hope this helps!
     
  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,525
    Likes Received:
    248,325
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The unit behind the skirmishing unit would be -2 to hit since intervening units count as hard cover, as per the BRB page 41
     
  4. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,764
    Likes Received:
    5,022
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Watching thread with interest. Would have little idea what to do myself.

    What if a skirmish unit of skinks teamed up with a unit of Salamanders? The skinks 1 deep x 12 wide right in front of the Sals. They march in tandem straight at the guns; the skirmishers job is to absorb shooting/die off until the Salamanders are in range to hose down the cannon crews.

    Is there a way to give a Stegadon an anti-cannon banner?
     
  5. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

    Messages:
    8,103
    Likes Received:
    6,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You can use the Iron curse icon, if you put a chief on your steg.
    we used to have...
    The banner of Chotec in the last book gave some protection against BS based shooting.
     
  6. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Someone I know did suggest using my monsters to block important units (namely Scar Vets and Old Bloods) from cannon balls and basically using them as a meat shield all game. I don't have Salamanders and I'm not sure how effective and efficient they exactly are in battle. But however if those flaming attacks are good against the Dwarves I could at least consider it and proxy them for a few battles to find out.

    I have heard a good way to combat Dwarves is with poison attacks and Lore of Metal. Maybe that means I should try out some Jungle Swarms?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2015
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,525
    Likes Received:
    248,325
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can see how this could be a viable tactic if your monster still has a significant number of wounds remaining (thereby a greater chance of surviving the cannon shot and stopping the cannon ball). This is also a bit riskier if there are 2 or more enemy cannons, where they can whittle down the monster and try to score a 2 for 1.

    Of course even at full wounds, there is always the chance that the cannonball kills the monster and then hits the Cowboy as well.

    WoC often like to shield a DP with a chimera or a couple of ranks of trolls (in either case assuming that the cannon shot is not flaming), because there is a great chance that the cannon fails to kill the screen and the DP is unharmed. Its a great tactic, but bear in mind that their screening units are better options than ours because they regenerate and in the case of trolls, cheap.
     
  8. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Unfortunately the Trolls strategy is a really good one, but not one we can run in Lizardmen. I'm not sure what to expect till I see it in game. I'm foreseeing a lot of losses coming my way between that list and the WoC army he runs and usually destroys us with.
     
  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,525
    Likes Received:
    248,325
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There will always be losses against dwarvian shooting. If you know you're facing cannons...

    1. don't bring monsters
    2. use a cold one bus for your cowboys
    3. bring some warmachine hunters (terra chief, terradons, rippers, camo skinks)
     
  10. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I've been told of this "Cold One Bus" strategy before but what exactly does it consist of?
     
  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,525
    Likes Received:
    248,325
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A cold one bus is a unit of Cold One Riders that you put your Cowboys in. Since the unit and the Cowboys are both classed as cavalry, you get 2+ look out sir roll against warmachines. The a bus unit is a "delivery system", ensuring that your cowboys make it safely across the field so they can do their thing. Once you get to the enemy lines, you can charge in with the unit or charge your cowboys out of the unit as needed.

    On the plus side, your cowboys are very well protected from cannons, no the negative side you have to pay a bunch of points for the Cold One Rider unit, and they are generally considered expensive (points wise) for what they do.
     
  12. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    What is the general number of units in the bus? I've got 16 at my disposal as of right now (8 constructed, 8 waiting to be built) and no more money to spend on Warhammer for a while lol. I made some bad financial decisions and spent a good chunk of money on things lately haha.
     
  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,525
    Likes Received:
    248,325
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well you need at least 5 rank and file models (a champion does not count, but a musician and standard bearer do) in order to give your characters the look out sir roll. So you probably want a couple more than 5 so you can soak up a bit of damage before losing the look out sir roll.

    How big you make the unit depends on the rest of your army, your play style, what you expect to face and the size of the game you are playing.
     
  14. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28

    That being said, with a row of riders four wide, I could only make four ranks, doing it five wide I could only make three.
     
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,525
    Likes Received:
    248,325
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That would be an extremely expensive unit. At that point you are moving out of the realm of a bus unit and into something that has a much greater resemblance to a deathstar unit. I personally would not field anywhere close to that many cold one riders.
     
  16. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28

    Ohhhhh.....


    I was under the impression that the Cold One Bus had like 15-20 riders in it lol.
     
  17. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    77,525
    Likes Received:
    248,325
    Trophy Points:
    113
    15-20 Cold One riders would be a deathstar for sure, and I'd be very hesitant to field an overpriced deathstar that suffers from the stupidity special rule.

    I'd say that a cold one rider bus would range from 6-9 models plus your characters. You could try to get away with only 5, but that is too risky for my play style. Depending on how many points are available to me, I'd probably field 6-7; but that's just me.
     
    n810 likes this.
  18. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    WELL THEN if that's the case I could easily do that haha. I'll definitely try to come up with a list to do that. It'll take some experimenting to find something that works I would imagine, plus I have to see what he's playing in the first place.
     
  19. Andrinor
    Saurus

    Andrinor Member

    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Tetto eko to vanguard up a unit or two maybe? Even if you get the first turn then can move your max movement to guarantee the charge turn two. A saurus bus in your face on turn one can be a pretty scary prospect.
     
  20. Matzotyl
    Cold One

    Matzotyl Active Member

    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I'll soon have 24 Chameleon Skinks at my disposal once I get my conversions finished, perhaps then I can take advantage of deploying them last once scouts deploy, and place them out of danger from the war machines and try to shoot them all down turn 1.
     

Share This Page