I have a thought. Would all the ridiculous summoning rules and the lack of points be solved if the following would become part of the rules? - Point values are introduced. - You cant summon units you have not paid for with those points. Everything will work as it does now, except that NOT dropping units on the table would make more sense. Both players want to get the sudden death objective, but then again they dont want to be too inferior in case they don't get to summon in time, and gets killed out right. It also makes sense as a "protective" strategy. Example: My opponent deploys a couple of "This kills a monster well" warmachines/whatever troop, and I then opt to not field my 2 carnosaurs. After I get those guys taken out with terradons, I decide it is time for my Slann to warp them in, and he does so. The two carnosaurs are now at full wounds in a more welcoming environment. Sense, this makes? It would also make sense when looking at the different unit warscrolls that says "Slann knows the SUMMON THIS spell". For the Slann to know that magic, the warscroll must be present and paid for in the army = SENSE! Special characters have the same rule that allows slanns to summon them, but nothing to prevent you from summoning more of the same Special characters ("HAHA I AM KROQ GARS EVIL TWIN! GRAQ-KROR!") Except, you cant "buy" more than one of the same Special char for points, and thus cant summon more than one = SENSE
I don't think that you can summon units that you haven't already fielded/held in reserve with a warscroll as is... I mean, how can you have access to any rules within a warscroll if you haven't fielded said scroll? At least, that seems to be the intent. Otherwise, why not put an entry on the Slann's page that says, "The Slann can summon whatever it wants 3 times per turn."
I figured you would just drop a unit for every scroll when you deployed (no reserve) but with your Slan you could summon more units like the ones you already have, even if they died.
All it needs to say on his page is number of spells he can do ... The full list of spells he knows is distributed throughout the compendium. Slanns are now Transporter Chiefs
I disagree. Unless you're joking, could you explain the logical steps that you followed to come to that conclusion? It looks to me that the summon spell is an ability within the unit's warscroll, and by taking that warscroll, the unit has activated and conferred the summon spell to any Slann. I suppose what's debatable is a match between two Lizardmen players -- would Slann on both sides receive that ability? "A Slann Mage-Priest is a wizard. It can attempt to cast three different spells in each of your own hero phases, and attempt to unbind three spells in each enemy hero phase. A Slann Mage-Priest knows the Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield and Light of the Heavens spells." That is the list of spells that he knows. Take a warscroll. The warscroll entry has a section for the Slann. The Slann now knows that spell.
Did you even get the purpose of my post? to put up possible intention with the rules that would make them make sense? What you describe makes no sense with Special characters....you must have Kroq-gar to summon his clone? Either the Slann have them per default, or else it will be as I say: "The unit must be in your army list for you to summon it" + "Units costs points" = You cant just spam random summons, and it will give you an advantage if you are trying to deny you enemy a Sudden death condition by leaving some of your army in Azyr to be summoned later. Not to sound high on my horse on anything, but my scenario makes sense!
I can't really make sense of a game where biped lizards throw javelins that turn into meteors at men who pretend to ride mechanical horses that aren't even rust-proof... however, yes, I still think that you need to actually take the warscroll to summon more of said warscroll. You're not summoning Kroq-Gars clone, either. You're summoning an incredibly powerful Saurus on a Carnosaur: an Ancient Warlord. *shrug* By any other name, I guess. Ridiculous or not (and Warhammer has never not been ridiculous), I just don't see how you can have any involvement with a warscroll entry if you do not take that warscroll (or a battalion which takes that warscroll), especially when the Slann's entry says that the Slann only knows 3 spells.
I just realize I read your initial post wrong. My apologies, we've been talking past eachother as I thought you were just saying "but the rules dont say that" back to me What I am saying is: If the rules dictate that you can only summon units in your army list, which you have a limited amount of points to create, then I am seriously ALL for it! It would open up quite some tactical aspects, especially with Arcane vassal that now works with all skink heroes and all types of spells!
I've designed a number of lists for a few different armies using the method that I've been posting here-and-there, and they all seem pretty balanced. You mentioned points and finding a way to balancing summons. Well, it seems that points are permanently gone. I think that a more appropriate system is a combination of slots and wounds. The slots are... x battalion slots, x warscroll slots, and wounds are specified two-fold. On one hand, you set the number of wounds per unit. It's important to accomodate horde armies (although the way that hordes function now is dramatically different - battalions = hordes... not very large, individual units anymore) when you specify wounds per unit. I'll explain in a bit. x wounds per unit On the other, you set the number of wounds per army. This just keeps the battle from getting out of hand, pretty much. You probably don't want the number of slots or units on the board multiplied by the number of wounds per unit to equal the number of wounds per army. Again, I'll explain. x wounds per army So, all 4 together, and you get an example... 1 battalion, 5 warscrolls, 40 wounds per unit max, 255 wounds per army max. By those guidelines, here are the lists (dashes mark parts of battalions, asterisks for warscrolls): Ogres Spoiler Gutbuster Wartribe (Battalion) -Tyrant (8W) -Butcher (7W) -7 Ogres (28W) -7 Ogres (28W) -7 Ogres (28W) -10 Ironguts (40W) -5 Leadbelchers (20W) *4 Mournfangs (24W) *4 Mournfangs (24W) *Stonehorn (12W) *Stonehorn (12W) *Gnoblar Scraplauncher (9W) Lizardmen Spoiler Saurus Host (Battalion) - Saurus Oldblood (7W) - 30 Saurus Warriors (30W) - 30 Saurus Warriors (30W) - 30 Saurus Warriors (30W) -20 Saurus Cavalry (40W) *Stegadon (10W) *8 Ripperdactyl Riders (24W) *8 Terradon Riders (24W) *6 Kroxigor (24W) *25 Skinks (25W) Some notes, explanations Spoiler The Ogres weigh in at 240 wounds with 49 models, and the Lizardmen at 244 wounds with 159 models. I could have maxed out the wound cap, which probably would have been smart for ogres... but against other armies, it may be tactically sound not to. You might get lucky and achieve sudden death. With a highly mobile army, that can make for a very good game. Anyway, the battalions strike the real balance here, where you're getting a 'bang for your buck' effect. They function a lot like 'Core,' really, but they're way cooler. The drawback is one we're familiar with: just like in 8th, some armies are pigeonholed with battalion choices. That may be intended. We're still stuck with Skinks and Saurus... but we do get Cavalry and Terradons in small batches. If you avoid multiplying wounds per unit by slots to find an overall wound cap, you get a good bit of dynamism out of it. People don't max out all of their infantry units, for one. It also makes single models a good deal more relevant. It's a push-pull thing. Now, I just threw these lists together as a test. I have no idea how good they are against one another... but hopefully you get the idea. This looks a lot like a 2.5k or 3k point battle in 8th, and each list's units have multiple ways to counter the other's. That '1 battalion, 5 warscrolls, 40 wounds per unit max, 255 wounds per army max' seems to be the sweetspot for all of the armies I've made lists for so far as far as running a 2.5k-3k battle. They've all come out pretty similar. So, if you field lists in this manner and only summon the warscrolls you've got, it could go a very long way in making summoning worthwhile/not too overpowered. Right now I'm balancing time between editing my pics from Alaska and making random army lists and generally obsessing over this new ruleset. Hopefully soon I'll have some more ways to scale down the battles in a balanced manner, perhaps a battle report if I can get Vassal to work on Win8.
Prediction: Spoiler: Open this after the game. the number of damage points a model or a unit can inflict will prove to be important --- more significant than the factors you have used.
I have a couple of predictions as to what's gonna happen, but we'll see! I think that although Ogres deal out a lot of damage, they'll struggle with Bravery and Battleshock. And although Saurus have high Bravery and decent attacks, they'll probably die off quickly due to their 5+ saves. I just finished downloading VASSAL... hopefully I can get a game in and a report up by tomorrow or the next day.
I agree with Pendrake. Spoiler: My prediction of the game, open after: The ogres will trash the saurus even without Battleshock, and is way more worth wound for wound
Don't forget that we aren't using ranks anymore. There are going to be a lot more Saurus getting into combat than Ogres... Ogres only have a 1" range -- but they're more than an inch thick. Expect them to put out 20-25 attacks or something. At damage 2, that's gonna be paaainfuuuul! Saurus are smaller and faster (with an Oldblood), so they'll be getting a significantly larger volume of attacks in. It depends heavily on who attacks first in this match-up. Anywhere from 60-90 attacks will put a big hurt on the Ogres. If they go first, it's ~90-120 attacks @ 4 attacks each. I'm excited either way. Battleshock is really going to hurt the units not protected by inspiring presence. I don't think that the battle's gonna be a landslide one way or the other.