The goal is to take 8th edition mostly intact, only make it more balanced. This is a "living document", feel free to make suggestions or criticisms. If something is too powerful or too weak I'd rather tweak the points cost then change rules left and right. It's important to give every army some candy. No army should only have things go up in price. Presumably if we get a general consensus on Lustria-Online we could send it to our sister websites and hear them pick it apart--I mean negotiate particulars. It's a lot easier to make a draft when I know the army well and it has an 8th edition handbook, like Dwarves, Empire, and Vampire Counts. I can get around to making a High Elf or Warrior of Chaos list, but I don't feel comfortable drafting any other, maybe Orcs and Goblins. Everyone Ward saves apply against all magic spells and against miscast damage. This includes Magic Resistance. Line template attacks that strike a character riding a monster are randomized between the rider and monster (1-4 monster, 5-6 rider). If a circular template differentiates between the center hole and the base template and a character riding a monster is hit by the center hole, the extra strength hit is randomized between the rider and monster (1-4 monster, 5-6 rider). The the character or rider still takes the regular template hit if they avoid the center hit. Taking a non-magical ranged weapon upgrade does not preclude any character from taking a non-magical hand weapon upgrade even if it says “one of the following”. Lizardmen Predatory Fighter applies to supporting attacks. Magic Items Reduce cost of Horn of Kygor by 15 points. Reduce the cost of the Jaguar Standard by 15 points Make it clear that the Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza and Piranha Blade stack Reclassify the Plaque of Dominion as an Enchanted Item and reduce cost by 5 points Slann Mage Priests Add Focused Ferocity: Predatory Fighter units joined by a Slann may always test to restrain pursuit as if the Slann were a Skink character. This does not apply to other units within six inches of the Slann. If a Slann gains Fear or Terror, the Slann’s unit is considered to possess Fear or Terror. (Slann special characters get this too.) Note this will make Harrowing Scrutiny reasonable Raise cost of Becalming Cognition by 5 points Reduce Cost of Transcendent Healing by 5 points Reduce cost of Higher State of Consciousness by 5 points Saurus Oldblood Reduce cost of spear to 3 points. Reduce base cost of Carnosaur by 15 points Raise cost of Cold One by 10 points Saurus Scar Veteran Reduce cost of spear by 2 point Reduce cost of Carnosaur by 15 points Raise cost of Cold One by 10 points Skink Chief Add Beast Kinship: A Skink Chief mounted on a Terradon may join a unit of Terradon riders. A Skink Chief mounted on a Ripperdactyl may join a unit of Ripperdactyl riders. Skink Chiefs on flying mounts may not join any other unit. Skink Priest Unchanged Saurus Warriors Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model Add “one unit of Saurus Warriors per army may take a magic standard worth up to 25 points). Skink Cohort Reduce base cost of Kroxigor by 5 points. Raise the minimum ratio of Skinks to Kroxigor to 10 to 1. (army list building only obviously, Skroxigor don't have to disband if the Skinks die disproportionately fast.) Skink Skirmishers Reduce the base cost by one point per model Raise the cost of the Javelins and Shield upgrade from free to 1 point per model Temple Guard Unchanged Jungle Swarms Reduce cost by 5 points per model Chameleon Skinks Reduce cost by 1 point per model Cold One Riders Reduce base cost by 1 point per model Reduce costs of Spear upgrade by 2 points per model May take a magic banner worth up to 50 points Kroxigor Reduce base cost by 5 points Terradon Riders Make optional swap to Fireleech bolas free Stegadon Unchanged Bastiladon reduce base cost by 15 points Solar Engine costs 15 points. Ark of Sotek remains free Ripperdactyl Raise Ripperdactyl’s base Ld stat by one point Ancient Stegadon Reduce cost of Engine of the Gods upgrade by 10 points Salamander Hunting Pack Unchanged Razordon Hunting Pack Add 3 points to the base cost Ranged attack gains armor piercing Troglodon Reduce cost by 40 points Mazdamundi Raise Leadership score to 10 Add to rules Greatest living caster: Mazdamundi is treated as a 5th level caster Lord Kroak Add 10 points to the base cost Kroq-Gar Reduce base cost by 30 points Chakax Reduce base cost by 25 points Gor-rok Unchanged Tetto’eko Raise Ld by one point Raise base cost by 30 points Tik’tak’to Reduce base cost by 15 points Change name to something less stupid. Teploq means death from the skies and sounds close enough to the original name Oxyotl Add Hates Daemons Reduce base cost by 10 points (so he costs the same as 10 Chameleon Skinks) Empire Reduce cost of Griffon Banner by 10 points Reduce cost of Mace of Helsturm by 5 points Reduce cost of the White Cloak of Ulric by 5 points Reduce cost of Ring of Volans by 5 points General of the Empire Reduce cost by 5 points Grand Master, Battle Wizard Lord, Arch Lector Unchanged Master Engineer Half the cost of all weapon upgrades (since they can’t be used while aiding a warmachine). Reduce cost of mechanical horse by 5 points Captain, Battle Wizard, Warrior Priest, Witch Hunter Unchanged Halbrediers Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model Spearmen Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model Swordsmen Cost reduced by 0.5 per model Crosswbowmen Cost reduced by 1 point per model Hangunners Cost reduced by 1 point per model Archers Unchanged Free Company Militia Cost reduced by 0.5 per model Knightly Orders Unchanged Great Swords Unchanged Demigryph Knights Increase cost by 7 points per model Reiksguard Knights Unchanged Huntsmen Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model Pistoliers Reduce cost by 2 point per model Outriders Reduce cost by 1 point per model Great Cannon Raise cost by 30 points per model Mortar Reduce base cost by 5 points per model Flagellants Reduce cost by 1 point per model Hellblaster Volley Gun Unchanged Helstrom Rocket Battery Reduce cost by 15 points Steam Tank Raise cost by 25 points Celestial Hurricanum Unchanged Luminark Reduce cost by 5 points Karl Franz, the Emperor Give the guy a shield. Ghal Maraz and the Reikland Runefang are both one handed weapons, and the emperor isn’t a moron. Reduce base cost by 10 points Kurt Helborg Give the guy a shield. The Solland Rundfang is a one handed weapon, and the Empire’s greatest general isn’t a moron. Reduce base cost by 10 points Balthasar Gelt Unchanged Volkmar the Grim Reduce base cost by 10 points. Marius Leitdorf Reduce base cost by 5 points Ludwig Schwarzhelm Give the guy a shield. The Sword of Justice is a one handed weapon, and the Emperor’s champion isn’t a moron. Reduce base cost by 5 points Luther Huss, Prophet of Sigmar Unchanged Markus Wulfhart, Huntsmarshal of the Empire Reduce base cost by 25 points--no 30 points, so someone might consider taking him Vampire Counts Vampiric Powers Reduce cost of Master of the Black Arts by 10 points Reduce cost of Curse of the Revenant by 5 points Reduce cost of Flying Horror by 10 points Reduce cost of Dark Acolyte by 5 points Reduce cost of Supernatural Terror by 5 points Reduce Cost of Master Strike by 10 points Vampire Lord Raise base cost by 10 points per model Reduce cost Additional Hand Weapon by 1 point Reduce cost of Great Weapon by 2 points Reduce cost of Lance by 2 points Reduce cost of Zombie Dragon by 20 points Reduce cost of Abyssal Terror by 10 points Master Necromancer Reduce Cost of Master of the Dead by 5 points, still limited to one per army Reduce cost of Abyssal Terror by 10 points Strigoi Ghoul King Unchanged Necromancer Reduce Cost of Master of the Dead by 5 points, still limited to one per army Vampire Reduce cost Additional Hand Weapon by 1 point Reduce cost of Great Weapon by 2 points Reduce cost of Lance by 2 points Wight King, Cairn Wraith, Tomb Banshee Unchanged Zombies Unchanged Skeletons Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model Ghouls Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model Add a standard bearer option for 10 points (no magic options) Dire Wolves Unchanged Zombies Unchanged (did I already list them? Oh no the zombies are spreading THE END IS NEAR!) Corpse Cart Reduce cost by 5 points per model. This carries over to characters taking Corpse Carts as a mount option Grave Guard Reduce base cost by 1 point per model Raise cost of upgrading to great weapons by 1 point per model Goal is to make people stop looking at sword and board as the crappy option Crypt Horrors Raise cost by 2 points per model Fell Bats Reduce cost by 1 point per model Bat Swarms Reduce cost by 10 points swarm base Spirit Host Raise cost by 5 points per swarm base Black Knights, Hex Wraiths Vargheists Unchanged Varghulf Reduce points cost by 5 points Blood Knights Reduce cost of base unit by 5 points per model Reduce cost of the Flag of Blood Keep by 15 points Cairn Wraith Reduce cost of base unit by 5 points per model Black Coach Reduce cost by 10 points Terrorgheist, Mortis Engine Unchanged Dwarves Lord Lower of the cost of crossbows and handguns by 2 points each Lower base cost by 5 points Runelord Lower base cost by 10 points Lower cost for Anvil of Doom by 70 points--nah 80 points Daemon Slayer Lower base cost by 10 points Thane, Master Engineer Unchanged Dragon Slayer Reduce base cost by 5 points Dwarf Warriors Unchanged Dwarf Quarrelers Reduce base cost by 0.5 points Thunderers Reduce base cost by 1 point Longbeards Unchanged Cannon Raise base cost by 30 points This puts an un-runed Dwarf cannon on par with the points cost Empire cannons even though the Dwarves’ are slightly better (more T, WS, and BS). This is an army edge Gyrocopter Raise cost by 10 points Remove restriction that only half Gyrocopters may buy the Vanguard upgrade Bolt Thrower Lower base cost by 5 points Grudge Thrower Raise base cost by 10 points Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Slayers, Miners Unchanged Organ Gun Unchanged Flame Cannon Reduce base cost by 10 points per model Rangers Unchanged Irondrakes Unchanged Gyrobomber Reduce base cost by 5 points per model Thorgrim Grudgebearer Reduce base cost by 20 points Thorek Ironbrow Reduce base cost by 90 points Yes, he’s that bad in RAW Ungrim Ironfist Reduce base cost by 10 points Belegar Ironhammer Reduce base cost by 25 points Josef Bugman, Grim Burloksson Unchanged
High Elves Reduce cost of Blade of Leaping Gold by 10 points Reduce cost of Armor of Caledor by 5 points Reduce cost of Shadow armor by 5 points Reduce cost of Gem of Sunfire by 5 points, change the first sentence to "Activate at the start of any turn, one use only." for clarity Raise cost of Book of Hoeth by 5 points Banner of the World Dragon Change the ward save bestowed to 3+ I wanted to just raise the price but then I realized this item would have become BSB only completely ruining it. Prince Reduce base cost by 10 points Reduce the cost of lance by 2 points Reduce the cost of all other mundane weapons by 1 point Reduce the cost of all dragon mounts by 15 points Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points Archmage Reduce the cost of all dragon mounts by 15 points Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points Annointed of Assuryan Lower the cost of Flamespyre Phoenix mount option by 25 points Raise the cost of Frostheart Pheonix mount option by 25 points Lore Master of Hoeth Reduce the base cost by 20 points Noble Reduce cost of lance by 2 points Reduce cost of spear and longbow by 1 point Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points Mage Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points Dragon Mage of Caledor Reduce base cost by 15 points Lothern Sea Helm Add “if a second leadership test is passed, the unit may make a stand and shoot if ordinarily able but at an additional -1 to hit (to reflect the penalty for moving)” to the naval discipline rules section. Handmaiden of the Everqueen Reduce base cost by 5 points Spearmen Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model Archers Reduce base cost by 1 point per model Lothern Sea Guard Reduce base cost by 1 point per model Silver Helms Unchanged Ellyrian Reavers Unchanged Lion Chariot of Chrace Reduce base cost by 10 points, this applies to Korhil’s mount option as well White Lions of Chrace Raise base cost by 1 point per model Swordmasters of Hoeth Unchanged Shadow Warriors Reduce base cost by 1 point Phoenix Guard Unchanged Dragon Princes of Caledor Reduce base cost by 1 point per model Lothern Skycutter Add note to profile. As a model with Fly, Lothern Skycutters may make a march move unless a spell or effect causes them to lose Fly. This naturally still applies when a Skycutter is chosen as a character mount. Tiranoc Chariot Reduce base cost by 5 points per model, this carries over to all characters who can take Tiranoc Chariots as a mount. Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower Move from Rare to Special Great Eagles Unchanged Flamespyre Phoenix Reduce base cost by 25 points Frostheart Pheonix Raise the base cost by 25 points Sisters of Averlorn Reduce base cost by 1 point per model Tyrion Unchanged Teclis Raise base cost by 5 points Eltharion the Grim Reduce base cost by 15 points Reduce cost of Stormwing by 5 points Alith Anar Add special rule “Loner: At army creation you may choose another character to be general even if Alith Anar’s leadership exceeds that of all other eligible characters. You must designate whether or not Alith Anar or a substitute is acting as general before deployment.” Alarielle the Radient Unchanged Korhil Reduce base cost by 10 points, reduce cost of lion chariot by 10 points Caradryan Raise cost Ashtari by 25 points (to reflect the change in Frostheart Phoenixes)
You need to add that Lord Kroak and the Engine of the gods, hit ALL targets within range, even those in close combat and targets to the front, flank or rear.
Considering that three of the four armies you've put on here are the armies I have (the fourth being the army I still want to make) I can only assume that you did this thinking about me. I think this is a pretty fair assessment of what needs to be fixed. I'm all on board for increasing the cost of cannons as well as going back to randomize what is hit.
I'm mostly done with a draft of the High Elves. I played on both sides of them before they got the new book and played them a bit after. Also they have an 8th edition handbook which makes tweaking them easier. I just need to figure out what to do with SC and give the first draft another look. Then it's on to Warriors of Chaos. Then I'm out of 8th edition handbooks that clearly indicate which units suck and which are overpowered. I should be able to do Orcs and Goblins because I play them a lot, but I haven't played a wide breadth of them. There needs to be some incentive to take vanilla Orcs and Goblins. The norm seems to be Night Goblins over regular Goblins and Savage Orcs over regular Orcs (same with Savage Orc Boar cavalry). Orcs and Goblins are not a top tier army so I would be reluctant to raise any points costs. Giants and Snotling swarms definitely need to go down. Not sure about the rest. EDIT: High Elves now up.
Alright, I will send you might thoughts tough. And with SC I think Tyrion should increase in points. I mean he can have 4 ws 9 strength 7 attacks and movement 10, an AS of 1 and a 4+ ward, his only weakness is that he is toughness 3, but that's an army weakness.
Hmm, I actually lowered his points cost based on his treatment on the Ulthuan 8th edition handbook. You have certainly convinced me not to lower the points cost but I'm not sure his cost should be raised. It's not uncommon to see Armor save 1+, Ward save 4+ characters. Movement 10 is not useable unless he deploys solo in which case he is an exposed target without a cavalry bus. P.S. The proposed HE list is up right now by the way.
No change to carnosaur? Not a huge fan of the lizardmen changes. The point reductions/increases feel a little all over the place and not very reflective of what it does to the army. Example: Trog is simply not going to be good as is, unless its just stupidly cheap. The point decrease does nothing to make it more usable. It feels like the army would be weaker overall after these changes. More options on whats you can reasonably take, but much weaker.
I was on the fence about whether or not to make Carnosaurs cheaper. I feared non-LM would look at the Lizardmen proposed changes with a magnifying glass, so I figured to be conservative with giving our scaly boys goodies. Also, Carnosaurs get a boost indirectly by making it harder to kill both mount and rider simultaneously with template shooting.
That makes sense. I'll be honest, the more i read about all this 8.1/openhammer/ninth hammer stuff the more I'm disliking it. And i can't quite place why. Oh well. Either way, awesome work. This is very extensive and nothing really jumps out as being atrocious.
Not atrocious is high praise indeed. In any event I think your intial post holds wisdom and I slightly reduced the price of Carnosaurs and increased the discount o Troglodons a bit.
The intent was clear. I have been a moderator long enough that I can speak Forumese pretty fluently. On an unrelated note. I am reconsidering the point increase on Scar Vets and Oldbloods. It's Cold Ones that the ETC limits. Maybe a modest increase in Cold One character mount costs.